Roger Castillo "True Nature"
12-27-2016

We don't have to rely on a peak experience that, comes out of nowhere to show us that. This this being is is ever present. It's covered but actually it is ever present, it's always here. It's always been here but awareness hasn't landed on it as it as being anything significant. So it's only when we start hearing these concepts, not these in particular but most spiritual teachings, that say the issue in life, the cause of suffering is the false idea we have of ourself.

And our true nature which is ever present, which has always been here and always will be here, is something that in itself doesn't require anything. So this is where we start to have the potential for things to change. Because new information effectively is coming into the picture. Until now awareness has landed on the beliefs that are heavily in place. And so a peak experience can come and show us some very profound things.

But because this beingness is ever present in what we are, If the path from being in our head to our heart starts to get strengthened, then we find that experientially we can verify this being anytime. And at some point we might find that we actually remain grounded in this place of being, which means grounded in this place of being there's no question about who I am and then there's no question about whether I maybe need this or I don't need this. And when we're not grounded in that place of being, then there's all sorts of doubts. The doubts come primarily because we actually don't know who we are from that place of disconnection. So we don't actually know what we need.

We have ideas of what we need, we get what we think we need time and time again, and it tends not to satisfy us on a continuous, unbroken basis. So when we get what we need, or what we think we need, that's pleasure in the moment, And it's temporary and fleeting. And so at some point, the recognition that I've been seeking for happiness out there in the form of pleasure for long enough, and I've got pleasure from time to time, and it hasn't satisfied me on an ongoing basis, That recognition, which is based on our own experience, that recognition coupled with the spiritual concepts that say actually what you are in essence doesn't need anything, including love, Those two things together then start to provide the impetus for a movement, movement that hasn't been prevalent before. And so dropping into being, how does that happen? 1 practice and it's not really a practice because, as I said, there's no one to practice anything but life will provide conditioning in the form of what seems like a set of instructions.

That set of, information becomes part of our up to date conditioning, and then we might find this movement into being happening more and more regularly. And so this is what, tended to work in my process following the instruction of Nirgadatta, 'Abide in I Am'. Whenever possible abide in I Am'. Now once again this isn't it sounds like an instruction of something to do. It sounds like Nizigadatta is telling me or you to do abiding in I am.

Whereas once again we repeat, it's not a prescription of something to do but a description of something that might happen. Something that might might happen as a result of your genes and up to date conditioning, functioning in the course of everyday living. So having understood that this continuous obsessive thinking about pleasure in the future, about what happened in the past, about why someone did this and why someone did that, coming to see that that is actually not delivering us any benefit, and in fact that is the suffering that is obscuring our peace of mind, which is what we're really looking for, having come to see this, we now know that when it is observed to be happening, it makes sense for it to get cut off. When we believe that it serves a very good purpose for this thinking to carry on, then there's no reason for it to get cut off. But having come to understand that actually this thinking is the problem, The suggestion is that when awareness lands on the thinking, the thought 'I am' can arise.

And that thought effectively summarizes everything we've come to see about the problem of this obsessive thinking and the understanding that there is a place of being, a field of being outside of thinking, which is where our true nature stems from and where we can rest and be grounded in. So that understanding is contained in the thought 'I am' And so when awareness lands on this obsessive thinking, automatically it's not your doing, it just happens the thought 'I am' arises and that can cut off the thinking. And in that moment when the thinking has been cut off, that's the opportunity to drop into being. And what helps, as far as I can see, in dropping into being is to open our gaze, allow everything that is in the field of vision and field of, hearing and all of the other senses to be as it is, not focusing on anything in particular, allowing everything to be as it is, that in itself already creates an expansiveness. And then there is the notion that the center of consciousness, which has spent so much of its time dragged up to the head and functioning as if its home is in the head, That center of consciousness is happy to drift down into the chest area of the body.

So we can just allow it, as if dragged down by gravity, to drop into the chest area of the body. We might notice that what we're seeing, everything that's arising in the moment allowed to be exactly as it is, is now being seen not from the head but from a more open place in the chest area. So awareness lands on the obsessive thinking. The thought 'I am' arises, contains all the understanding about this obsessive thinking, primarily that it's fine for it to stop, it's not serving any purpose, cuts off the thinking. And simultaneously we drop down into the heart with an open, soft gaze, allowing everything to be as it is.

And that place of being becomes our experiential proof, not something we have to think about. But what we'll find is that something that was problematic just seconds before, something that was being looked at from the perspective of who I believed I am, Basically pain in the moment, a circumstance that hasn't turned out the way that we would like. So something that has been related to as a problem and then suffering arising, as we drop into being, it just falls away. Circumstance remains largely the way it was seconds before. And yet the relationship to circumstance from this place of being is completely different.

So originally, at first we might find that we're in this place of being for about 0.5 of a second before we're dragged back into thinking. And the thinking can happen for 10 or 15 minutes maybe before we even realize that we've been dragged back up into thinking. And that's okay, as soon as awareness lands on it again the thought 'I am' can arise and the whole process repeats itself. And if we're really lucky, we'll watch that the thinking is automatic, the obsessive thinking is automatic, based on our current genes and up to date conditioning. The thought I am is arising because in this situation the body has been exposed to new up to date conditioning.

So awareness can watch the I am thought arise, cuts off the obsessive thinking, and awareness may then also watch the dropping into being. And from that place the sense of existence, this 'I am ness', this being ness, this expansiveness becomes much more knowable. And so even though at first we find ourselves resting there for very, very short periods of time because the habit is so strong to go back into the head, This practice, which is not really a practice, it's a happening, can happen 20, 30, 40 times in a day without us even needing to miss a beat. We can be walking down the street and this can happen. We can be sitting at work and this can happen.

We don't need to take time out of whatever we're doing. This is an automatic process that just starts happening. And as it happens more and more we find the pathway down to this place of being gets strengthened. And then we find that we're able to rest there for longer and longer and longer. Each time we rest there, we get experiential proof that what I really am at the core of my being is something unaffected by circumstance.

That experiential proof then starts to undermine the ingrained beliefs that we notice are the basis of the suffering that says, 'I need this to be a certain way.' The suffering that is an uncomfortableness with oneself when it arises. Then we know for ourselves, know what I am at my core is not dependent on life being one way or another. And so what we see when awareness lands on the suffering is that suffering is a certain attitude to the flow of life, certain attitude to the pleasure and pain which is very natural to the flow of life. Life is always going to be just pleasure or pain, never pleasure pleasure pleasure pleasure. And suffering is an attitude to that flow of life which says, Actually I need it to be pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.

An attitude that when pain is delivered blames the other for delivering the pain or blames ourself for doing something that has delivered pain. And so this resting in being starts to undermine that ingrained belief that arises and turns into suffering spontaneously when life impacts it. And the new attitude that replaces the old attitude isn't an attitude of thinking, but it's an attitude of being. We could say an attitude of the heart, an attitude of our true nature. So often we think of the word 'attitude' as if it's thinking about something.

The attitude of suffering is definitely thought based, but the attitude that we find is there when that ingrained set of beliefs falls away. It's our true nature. And we only call it an attitude because when we find ourselves moving through life, surprised that things are not always going the way we want, and yet we find that suffering doesn't arise. And so we can call it we can say, oh, I must have my natural my my the essence of who I am. That natural attitude is one of acceptance, one of non involvement.

And so if we try to accept without understanding what the root of non acceptance is we're going to be trying to achieve the unachievable. Because as long as this ingrained belief that I am the doer, the other is the doer, and I need pleasure in order to be complete, As long as that is deeply ingrained there's no question of acceptance. What is going to automatically happen, this is what non doership means, is that no one is doing suffering. Suffering is a mechanical extension of these ingrained beliefs that we didn't put in place, it's not who we are. Life has put these ingrained beliefs in place.

And it's life that if destiny dictates, life will undo them by reconditioning the up to date conditioning. And so this question of acceptance when the beliefs are in place is just something that the individual doer takes on and is going to be frustrated trying to achieve because it's not going to achieve it. Accepting is the natural way of being when that false set of beliefs falls away. So we don't do accepting. Accepting is actually just the falling away of non accepting.

And non accepting stems from a belief that can't accept pain in the moment. The belief has to flower into suffering as the basis of the belief is 'I need pleasure in order to be complete.' So no question of accepting when that belief is in place. So as these concepts become ingrained in us what happens is awareness can start to see non acceptance happening, not my doing. Understand that the non acceptance is based on a set of beliefs of who I am which are not really what I am, beliefs that life has put in place, not my doing. I didn't choose, yes, this is the belief I'm going to have.

Life forced that belief to become ingrained based on the experience that we've had from the time we were born up to that point in time. Based on the experience, what life feels like. Life feel it makes sense, the belief is here. Because when we look at the experience of life on the surface, without investigating it deeply, the experience says, you are the doer. It feels that I am the doer, I am the thinker.

And it and I am the body. And therefore the assumption is, well, obviously I'm a physical thing. Pleasure and pain is very significant to this. So I need pleasure and I need the absence of pain. So it makes sense that these beliefs have been put in place based on a surface evaluation of the life experience?

Spirituality is a movement beyond the surface experience, an investigation at what lies at our depth of our being. It's a movement whereby awareness directed by certain concepts lands at deeper and deeper levels of this manifestation. And with that information of what's below the surface, the conclusions that were put in place based on just a surface understanding will be, will will fall away. So now this sadness that you're feeling, now this this sadness that you are feeling, Right? It's worth looking at that.

The reason it's worth looking at that is this, is that the false beliefs of who we are are contained not so much as a conscious belief but as a deeply deeply ingrained belief. And the totality of this set of beliefs is contained in all of the residual energy packets of unresolved past events. What that means is that the belief of who I am is contained in locked away in the body, in energetic packets that stem from events that happened in the past and conclusions about what those events meant to me, to the idea of who I am, this false belief of who I am. And that means that when we have this false idea of who we are, tragic events, which are very painful, get turned into something personal, and they reinforce this idea of who I am. And so we'll find that at the core of these energies lies a load of shame and hatred, shame for one's own actions and hatred for the actions of those that have hurt you.

And until we are until these energies are felt, until the stories that are contained throughout the body are actually seen. Seen because they are allowed to flower into emotion and allowed to come out of the body. Until they are seen and released they'll remain in place and will continue to wonder why is it that I keep, time and time again, reacting the same way. But but feeling does not solve anything, actually, by itself. Like, it can become, habit also.

Sure. Even like, yeah, strong enough to actually repeat itself and create itself. There's a significant component that changes that from being because we can express till the cows come home. And it just What? It's an expression.

It's a, we can express till the cows come home, meaning, over and over and over again. And it will seemingly be endless. And in fact, as you say, if we see this hatred towards someone for what they did, with a certain attitude to life, that will actually reinforce the feeling. And we'll say, Damn right I hate them. Look at what they did.

And it can strengthen the hatred. So this expressing becomes a release when something very significant is in play. And that is when our conscious relationship to life has started to change, where we really start to see well I am not the doer. Because whatever happens in each moment for me and for the other can only happen one way, and that is based on who I am biologically in that moment. And the other will only be able to act one way, the way they are biologically in that moment.

And the biological makeup is made up of these two factors, the genes and up to date conditioning, neither of which were was I in control of or the other, the genetic structure we were born with and remained more or less the same, although even that is now being shown to change. But the fact it changes doesn't mean that at any one point there is a single genetic structure that is the way it is, not my doing. And the other factor, our up to date conditioning that has been delivered moment after moment through our whole life, making it only one way in each moment. We don't need to understand what way it is, we just know that it's one way, the way it is. And so like 2 chemicals coming together that react and it's not personal, they'll react with each other the way they're destined to react based on their chemical composition, that humans in certain situations are only going to react one way.

Can I ask you something? Because I, I saw while you were talking a bit earlier where this comes from, like, where this belief comes from. It's, I resonated a lot when you said that, when you define the belief that I need love, Cause that's actually for me. And it comes from starving, like, being a very starved child, really, like, desperately looking for attention. So, but the thing is now that I saw this, and I kind of knew it, in the past years or so.

But now it's more clear how, yeah, I I go into doing again, like, how can I make it stable? You know, like, there is this intention of strong desire to stop the suffering because it's repeat it's repetitive. It's I it's very clear. I see it. And somehow I still fall in the trance, you know, as I Yeah.

And we fall in the trance because on a deep level, the beliefs that say 'I need love' are still there. And so the question is, how does this change? Yeah. And it changes through life, delivering what it needs to deliver in order to change. So it's not my It's not your doing.

However, if what I'm being said is heard, then it may well become part of the up to date conditioning that life is delivering in order to bring about change. So if what you say settles in, then it might change the conditioning. Yes. Not because I want it to or because you want it to. Because if the way we will then start functioning based on our genes and up to date conditioning, and that means that automatically we will start seeing things that we didn't see before.

And as we see things that we didn't see before then things will change. And what is particularly significant here is we'll see certain beliefs and certain habits that keep everything in place. And so as awareness comes into this area, then things shift. And as things shift, energies come out. And as energies come out, the belief of who I am, which is contained in those energies, comes out.

So this is, where just before your last question, the description is that once we start to see consciously in our day to day living that I'm not the doer and also in our day to day living, by dropping into being and by knowing that I've had pleasure for my whole life from time to time and it hasn't given me happiness. Once we really start to see this then on a conscious level we say, 'I am not the doer, I see this. And I don't pleasure is not what is going to give me continuous happiness. My continuous happiness is coming from the source of who I am, my essence. So we can know this intellectually.

And this intellectual understanding goes deeper and deeper and deeper and how it goes deeper and deeper well, it goes deeper and deeper and it uproots the deeply ingrained misunderstanding. And so in line with this description we're talking about cathartic release, allowing the feelings to be felt, to flower. And flowering means to allow them to really come out, means crying, whatever. It's not about you to choose, the the emotion will dictate what comes out. And in the emotion, there'll be a story line.

And the storyline could include something like, I I hate you for abandoning me. I hate you for not loving me.' And then we might see deeper down, 'I hate myself for not being lovable.' That could be a conclusion that's put in place. It's just one of the way life works. It's total nonsense. But that's how we tend to work when we believe certain things about ourselves.

And so deep deep down we might find that there is this load of shame for not being lovable and this load of hate for not being loved. And that ingrained belief system that's energetic in nature, deeply ingrained, contains the complete opposite of what we're now seeing to be true. That I don't need love from the other in order to be complete, And that the other has never delivered pain to me because of their doing. And the pain that is delivered to me or the lack of love is never delivered because I am not worthy. I'm not worthy is based on the idea that I haven't functioned well enough in life.

I haven't done what I need to do. So we see that down at the depths there's this this guilt, this shame, this blame, this hatred, all based on the idea I'm the doer, the other is the doer and I need love in this case in order to be complete. So as you say, if we don't understand that there's an error in that energetic lock, in that energetic bundle, then it will come up, an error won't be seen, and it will just reinforce itself. But as we become more and more convinced from our own investigation, based on our own daily life experience, that those assumptions are completely out of line with the nature of self and the nature of reality, that's when the energies can come up, they can be witnessed as being very powerful energies that have been put in place. We can be absolutely amazed that I hate someone as much as the energy tells me I hate them.

Because consciously we haven't even realized. And the energy can come up, it can be witnessed. And if it is witnessed, meaning no involvement in the fact it's there, just allowing it to be as it is, in my experience, that's when it gets released. And when those energies get released then we find that this repetitive pattern of falling into the same suffering reaction to circumstances in life that mirror those circumstances that are locked away, the memory of those events, then that automatic impulse that happens starts to stop happening. Only because the false belief that was deeply locked in place has now been released.

So once again this is not something to do tomorrow morning between 6:8. Just live your life, go to the beach if you want. Don't have to do anything. At some point, the energy will arise, awareness will land on it. And instead of what it normally might do, which is suppress it or, get angry without any awareness of what's contained in this energy, instead of doing what it normally does there might be a willingness to say, I'm curious about this.

I want to see what it really is. I want to see what it really is.' Which feels counterintuitive because the energy is deep uncomfortableness, right? That's why we normally don't want to see what it is. But now intellectually we have an understanding, I want to see what this is because this is the root of my suffering in daily living. So we have a rationale.

And if we can come to understand this is an energy based on a false idea, it's there but it doesn't need to remain, then the curiosity and the willingness to explore will be there. So see how it goes. You spoke a little bit about your own process of the space between awakening and basically the integration process. I'm curious as to whether your work with Naresh changed during that period, or if there was anything particularly significant that was helpful to you, or was it just a flow of what life delivered? So sorry.

You'd like to know about the period between awakening and integration? The the integration period. The integration period. Yeah. Great.

It was so prior to meeting Ramesh, I was exposed to and only exposed to fairly esoteric and profound non dual teachings. So those works of the likes of Ramana, Nirgadatta, A Course in Miracles, which were continually just pointing to the formless nature of life, pointing to the functioning of awareness and the sense of existence as being what we really are, pointing at the fact that life is an illusion, and that's summed up by Shankara's summation of Advaita, which says Brahman alone is real. The world is illusion. Brahman is the world. And so that that can sound a bit contradictory, but actually it's the paradox, which says there's only only Brahman is real.

And it makes the next statement very clear, the world is illusion. So at first it seems like there is Brahman that is real and the world, which is illusion is separate from Brahman. But then the the end says that the world is Brahman. So what comes about from that exploration into the nature of life, the fundamental nature of life, if we're lucky, reveals that life moment to moment is an experience arising in consciousness, an experience that is designed to feel absolutely real, an experience that is designed to be an experience of time and space, of solid physical form. And so that's this experience right now.

And on the surface it doesnit seem like experience, it seems like an objective reality. If weire lucky, a realization of the nature of experience is seen, and the transientness of it and the fact that, illusion means that it's an experience that is designed to create a certain impression. And we can't deny the experience, but itis not an expression of reality. So at first we take experience to be an expression of what is real. And if we're lucky, the process will take us through, through seeing that, oh, experience doesn't actually mean that what is experienced is truth or real?

So then we understand, oh, it's illusion, it's Maya, or lila playing consciousness. That doesn't mean that the illusion stops. In fact, it doesn't. That's the whole point. We don't wake up out of the illusion.

We're rather we wake up to the fact it is an illusion. And in waking up to the fact, what wakes up is the is the awareness in which the whole appearance well, actually the awareness doesn't wake up, what is recognized is the awareness in which the whole momentary experience arises. And from that point of view it's known that all there is is consciousness. Everything is arising in consciousness, made of consciousness and recognized by consciousness. From that point of view, a lot of spiritual concepts are ingrained in order to bring about this shift.

Spiritual concepts that basically show us that the existing idea of what life is is out of line. So it says cause and effect is not really what's actually cause and effect is not real, time and space are not real, the world is a dream or is not real, that to all sorts of, concepts to break down the existing beliefs that are, creating a solid impression of the world the way it is. Those spiritual concepts, which serve a very good purpose, tend to hang around and become beliefs in themselves. And often we might conclude that our life is meant to be lived from this witnessing perspective, from a perspective that is very impersonal and that the individual has dissolved. And if the individual hasn't dissolved and we're waiting for it to dissolve in this by hanging out in this witnessing perspective.

And the witnessing perspective is now available because the other beliefs about what life is have been weakened sufficiently that there's a shift in consciousness. It creates a a different state. And that different state coupled with the spiritual concepts that are brought about that state thing can become a problem. Because what if life is not ever going to, bring about the complete dissolution of the individual? What if life is not meant to be lived from this very impersonal perspective of watching everything from the perspective of formless awareness.

So when I went to see Ramesh, a lot of deep, deep realizations about the nature of, life and the nature of self had happened. But we had a conversation and he could see that clearly these concepts had become new beliefs. And the, discussion that ensued after we had I had sort of spoken about the esoteric nature of life and whatever, he said, so who is speaking to whom? And I answered it in a way that Ramesh from an at another time and another place speaking to someone else might have been quite happy with because it's something that he would say. I answered it and said, well, you could say that consciousness is speaking with consciousness, and consciousness is listening to consciousness.' And so Ramesh remained silent for about 5 seconds.

And then he said, 'Roger, don't be ridiculous.' Roger is speaking to Ramesh and Ramesh is listening. Then Ramesh speaks to Roger and Roger listens. And it had taken about 3 or 4 years of being immersed in these other spiritual teachings. Day in day night my dreams had become spiritual investigation about the nature of consciousness nature of consciousness etcetera. And the conclusion experientially that had been shown is that there is no Roger and there is no Ramesh, there is no tree and there is no this and that.

All there is is consciousness. And here was Ramesh telling me that there is a Roger and there is a Ramesh and not to be ridiculous in saying that everything is consciousness. And so to be frank I thought actually this is, sort of kindergarten spirituality And Ramesh hasn't even understood what what his teacher has been, you know, has been saying. Niragaddha in I am that goes to logic's the great efforts to say I am not the body, what I am is consciousness. So I sort of drew my conclusions which very promptly, within a short period of time, were shown to be very wrong, incidentally.

And I sort of left it at that. But this notion of Roger and Ramesh kept going round and round in my head. And at some point, I realized that I'm not able to say I am Roger. And in realizing this, that I am not able to even say the words I am Roger, I realized, wow, something interesting is happening here. And as I realized it more and more, it became very apparent that there was a strong belief that had been set in place that I am consciousness.

A belief that didn't even allow recognition of the experience that was really here, which was very much the experience of Roger sitting in a chair and Roger walking through the street, Roger ordering, food at the restaurant. And it became apparent to me that it was like me calling a house a bundle of bricks, and not being able to say, oh well, I understand that the fundamental nature of a house is a bunch of bricks, but I can now see its form. I can see the form of the bricks in the form of a house, and so I practically relate to it as a house, not as a bundle of bricks. And this this, recognition demonstrated that there were a whole lot of beliefs that had been put in place by the previous teachings that had served a fantastic purpose. And that's when Ramana's, saying made complete sense.

I think I'd understood it in relation to other beliefs I'd seen. But when I saw it in this instant it was like, 'Wow, that is what he means!' And I am referring to the, quote or saying, use this thorn to remove the thorn embedded in your thumb, but then be sure to throw both thorns away. And so this thorn that he's referring to is spiritual concepts to uproot the thorn that has become deeply ingrained beliefs about who we are. So the notion that I am not the body, I am consciousness can be used to uproot the belief 'I am the body.' But the quote is here because not to ensure people throw both thorns away but in recognition that inevitably that spiritual concept that was used to uproot the first belief is in itself going to get stuck in your thumb and become the new set of beliefs. And so the saying just makes us aware of the fact that this is what can happen.

And when we see it, then the beliefs can be released because they're seen to be beliefs. So a belief is a concept which in itself is only relative, can only ever be relative, concepts can only be relative. But when we take a relative concept and mistake ourselves and think it's truth, think it's absolute, then it becomes a belief. And for as long as we think that a belief is a concept is truth, it remains in place. And it's only when life brings about a recognition through whatever process it does that, wow, this is something that can't be true and I'm relating to it as if it's truth, that it then falls away.

And so the process with Ramesh was this process of integrating the deep realizations that had happened prior into daily living. Meaning Ramesh would provide descriptions of where life will take us, where the story of life and the spiritual transformation will end up taking us. And so Ramesh went to great extents to say that what weire really looking for in life is something very practical. Weire looking for happiness for the human being, happiness for Roger in this life. We're not looking for all sorts of magical, profound states.

We're not looking for happiness in another life or special powers. We're looking for happiness for Roger in this life. And what is happiness in practical terms? Terms? Let's define it.

Because if we don't define it, we're likely to create false ideas of what this happiness is. And he said, it's a very simple thing. It's not happiness through pleasure, we've been seeking that our whole life and we haven't got it. Happiness for the human being turns out to be happiness through peace of mind. Let's define peace of mind.

Peace of mind is what's there naturally when suffering falls away. So Buddha put it the other way in negative terms. 'Enlightenment is the end of suffering.' Ramesh put it in both forms. Its positive form, we're looking for peace of mind, then went to great extents to say, peace of mind is simply the end of suffering. Suffering which arises based on this false belief of who we are in the form of guilt, blame, pride, worry and expectation.

And all of these concepts allow awareness to land on our daily life experience, start to see it for what it is, start to be able to understand it intellectually in very simple English everyday terms. And if there's a simple intellectual understanding about where we're going, what the experience of life from a happy point of view is, then that tends to dissolve some other beliefs that may have been put in place because the language wasn't so clear or because it was the the teachings were aiming at undoing another problem. So then these teachings start to say, Hey, do we have any of these crazy, well, misplaced beliefs in place that are keeping us from going where life is taking us. Knowing that if we're not going somewhere it's because that's part of the predestined story of life. It's meant to be that we're going to go round and round in circles for a while.

And at some point, if it's destiny for life to undo what's keeping us going round in circles, then that happens. And what we find is as we let go of more and more beliefs about where we're meant to be going and what life is meant to look like, then we find ourselves moving somewhere. And this peace of mind that kicks in when the false beliefs of who we are are uprooted is very much accompanied by the sense of a Roger, a sense of being an individual. And what that means is that if we define it a certain way, we we are the ego. We always have been the ego and we always will be the ego, enlightenment or not.

And so what is the ego? The ego is a feeling, a sensation which we can say is identification with name and form. And we've become convinced that identification with name and form is the absolute problem. And it's not. Identification with name and form will remain in order for us to be able to function as this human being, answering to our name and moving around life feeling like I am this, not feeling like I am the tree or the dog or someone else.

The issue is the ingrained beliefs that prevent a recognition of what we are at our core from happening. So the identification with name and form being there, which is the ego, doesn't mean that we have now lost sight of the essence of who we are. And that's why the ego can very much remain and not be the problem, because from this point of having realized the essence of life and that realization doesn't vanish, although it doesn't necessarily have to remain center stage anymore having realized that, we can then allow the experience of rogerness to be there, allow the experience of identification with name and form to be there and understand that what Roger is is actually impersonal consciousness connected to a particular body. And at that point of connection, there is this identification with name and form, and the functioning of that impersonal consciousness through the body as personal consciousness. And what's left with that experience is very much the sense of the individual, but without the belief that I am the one making life happen, without the belief I am the doer and the other is the doer, without the belief that I need pleasure in the flow of life in order to be complete.

The flow of life is still going to include pleasure. And when pleasure is there, we enjoy the pleasure. When pain is there, we're forced to endure the pain. The human being, which is the sense of being this individual identification with name and form, recognizing that that is just an extension of source functioning through a particular body mind organism or a vehicle means that in each moment we still have to do exactly what we think or feel we should do. That's how life unfolds, that's how the destined story of life unfolds, through the individual doing in each moment what they think or feel they should do.

And when we investigate that, that which we can call our free will, the feeling of free will, because that's what it is, it's a feeling that I am free to do whatever I want in each moment. And when we investigate that, on investigation we find, wow, what feels like my free will is actually God's will. God's will because what feels like my free will is the functioning of my genes and up to date conditioning that I had no control over. And once I do what I feel like doing, which I now know is God's will and yet feels like my free will, the outcome is not in my control. Sometimes we get what we want, sometimes we don't.

Ramesh used to say that and add, and sometimes we get even more than we expect. And so the marrying of these two together is is beautiful. We we can't deny that in experience there is the feeling of free will. If we say there is no free will because we've seen that everything that happens is based on genes and up to date conditioning, we're we're denying and we're not recognizing the feeling of free will. So now what we call free will, we're now redefining as a feeling of free will, which is great, it's a gift.

It's the gift that allows me to function as if I'm roger Roger, as if I'm in control of whatever is happening, knowing deep down that everything that's happening is the unfolding of Source, destiny unfolding exactly the way it's meant to unfold. So it's really, it's again conditioned behavior. Good just Should I repeat? So, basically, the free what we call free will at a superficial level, at a deeper level is just conditioned. Yeah.

It's a condition no, it's it's the result of spontaneous life plus conditioned, plus, plus, plus. Yes. What the feeling is the feeling is I can do in each moment whatever I want to do. I can stand up, I can sit down, I can order this, I can order that. We know in practice we don't always get what we think we're going to get.

We can place an order at the restaurant, 'That's my free will, I would like some orange juice.' The waiter comes back and says, I'm very sorry, there aren't any oranges in the kitchen, you can't have any orange juice.' Or the waiter comes back and gives me orange juice. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't, and I'm not in control of getting either. The feeling is there, my free will, but the choice for orange juice is based on the circumstance we find ourselves in, the options that are available, and as you said, preferences in the moment, which are part of our biology and dictated by our genes and up to date conditioning. So what we feel as my free will and say, 'That is my choice' is actually just choice happening, a mechanism based on these biological factors. Now, conditioning is not a problem.

In spirituality, we're convinced that, conditioning is the problem. And we have this idea that one day, I will be free of conditioning. The human being is a conditioned instrument, will always be a conditioned instrument. How we the knowledge to use a knife and fork is conditioning. The knowledge how to walk is conditioning.

Speaking is conditioning. Our capacity to do mathematics is conditioning. So many things that are required in daily, everyday life is conditioning. Conditioning is not the problem. It's a very specific type of conditioning that is the problem.

It's conditioning that we can put into this category of the thinking mind. So we can separate the the mind into 2 categories, the working mind and the thinking mind. And the working mind has lots of conditioning, like I just mentioned, that is not at all a problem to our peace of mind, doesn't create suffering. The thinking mind, on the other hand, is where the false beliefs of who we are exist. And so life, if it's destiny, starts to erode the thinking mind conditioning.

The working mind conditioning remains in place and has to remain in place for us to be able to function as human beings. So now now we're no longer concerned about all conditioning falling away. We're not trying to become unconditioned. We're just becoming aware of the conditioning that leads to suffering. You said that, our choice is also God's choice, and I also understood that we always move with our our preferences in a way.

And I noticed for myself, the more I'm in the I am state, the more I actually let go of the past and also kind of the present. Like, the ideas in the present about the past are let go of. And, the more I find myself actually eager about life, like, kind of navigating through life with more happiness. Mhmm. And that feels to me like wanting or something, and that's what I wanna speak about because in Bhagavad Gita and it always is said that you should not have pleasure, and I would like to kind of talk about this concept because I'm sure I'm probably getting it wrong.

So, it says, he who forsakes the ordinances of scriptures and acts under the influence of desire attains not perfection nor happiness nor the supreme state. Or also above, like, if they're, like, without pride, without delusion, victorious over the blemish of attachments, ever abiding in the self, their desires abundant, released from the pairs called pleasure and pain, they go undiluted to that abode, immutable. So anyways, it's always about not having desires. Not exact yeah. Great.

So fantastic question, right? Because this is exactly the sort of confusion that needs to be cleared up. And it's confusion because the way that intellect is designed is sometimes a little lazy, and it doesn't necessarily get things. And so an example of this, and it's very related to this subject, is that in the Bible there is a saying. And how it gets, put out in regular or often is a misquote of what's in the Bible.

And so what we often hear is that money is the root of all evil. The actual quote is the love of money is the root of all evil. We think, oh, that's not so important, but, you know, money is the root of all evil. But the love of money implies an attachment to money. And so in this, the love of money is the root of all evil.

So love means attachment, money means pleasure, evil means suffering, as I'm transposing it into the context of this teaching. And in the context where you just, that you just read, desire has a very specific meaning. It's used in the same way that it's used in the Buddhist teachings where, Buddha says enlightenment is the end of suffering, the cause of suffering is desire. And so desire implies in it attachment to pleasure. And attachment to pleasure stems from the belief, I require pleasure in the flow of life in order to be complete.

So attachment to pleasure or desire is directly linked to an idea of who I am. And so what that, verse is is saying is those that don't abide with the scriptures and in the scriptures it would say that, what our true nature is is free from, the need of pleasure and pain, that what we are is complete, and that there is no recognition of that true self, and that the dropping of these attachments will reveal our true self and then we'll abide there without desire. So what that means is we'll be able to abide in our true nature knowing what we are without the belief that I need pleasure in order to be complete. So without with the attachment having fallen away. That's an understanding on the level of self, and it turns into be it turns out that turns into our attitude to life.

So on the level of our attitude or on the level of self, there is now no longer a need for pleasure or pain to define us. That doesn't change the flow of life. The flow of life is always going to be only ever pleasure or pain. And the human being is not just, beingness or consciousness, it's the combination of beingness plus the biological vehicle. And so the human experience is always going to be part outside of the flow of life and part inside the flow of life.

The physical experience is going is part of the flow of life. And so with the falling away of attachment to pleasure, we have an attitude that is the attitude of self, knowing I don't need pleasure in order to be complete. However, pleasure in the flow of life is going to be there, and when pleasure is delivered, the body will experience the pleasure. When pain is delivered, the body will experience the pain. And how the body moves through life is always in line with its biological preferences.

The body is going to move towards its pleasures and not towards its pains. And that is not attachment to pleasure or pain, it's a biological movement towards pleasure and pain in the flow of life. And if the biological doesn't get the pleasure it's moving towards, there isn't a component of the biological aspect of the human being that resists the fact doesn't doesn't resist attitudinally. Biologically, there could be a resistance if someone delivers pain in the form of a physical attack, for example. So biologically, the body is going to have to deal with that pain, and it might biologically react in a form of defense, which makes intelligent biological sense.

Attitudinally, there will be the understanding that everything that is happening is a happening according to God's will or the story of life. My destiny to have pain in this moment, destiny of the other to deliver that pain, the destiny of the other to receive biological resistance, the outcome of that biological resistance unknown, I might get mortally wounded and the body will die. The other might end up in hospital. All of that are happening. So attitudinally, no resistance.

Biologically, there will be a resistance and an indulgence in the pleasure or pain of life. And Oh, so Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. So this is, what Ramesh would add is that we start off, in in scriptures, an enlightened being who is attached to pleasure and pain, seeking after pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure is referred to as a bogey, an enjoyer.

A bogey, meaning 'enjoyer'. But in some parts of the scriptures an enlightened being is referred to as a 'maha boghi', a super enjoyer. And why they're a super enjoyer is because the attachment to pleasure and pain has fallen away, Which means when pleasure comes, the biological will the biological experience of that will be there, and it will be enjoyed fully without the psychological thoughts that are so prone to happen when these false beliefs are in place, without those arising, that even when we're enjoying pain, enjoying pleasure, will prevent us from enjoying it fully because there'll be thoughts about when is this going to end, What is going to happen when this ends?' Or, well, actually this is pleasure but I would like it to be a more intense pleasure.' So with those beliefs in place, those beliefs having fallen away, when life delivers pleasure it's enjoyed fully without anything getting in the way of it. Yeah. That's really nice.

No. Because I feel often in in in this teaching, it's misunderstood from this body mind that or if I'm immersed in a retreat with Mooji, let's say, that there's a lot of self judgment coming up for enjoying life or for being eager to certain experiences. Because also I read, like, it's good to be dispassionate and, yeah, to not feel the pleasure. I feel there is some kind of rooted belief I should not want anything or Yeah. It's bad to want.

In the same time, experientially, I'm a lot more happy if I allow myself to want. And the more I'm immersed to teachings like my mooji, the more present I am and the more eager I become and the more I'm just like, woah, I want to do this and there is less resistance. So I feel also not doing or not wanting is also doing or Sure. It's kind of a resistance of life and but I feel there is in the spiritual world a lot of times I feel a lot of pressure Mhmm. To not enjoy so much or to not be, you know, treating my life as I want.

The pressure comes from the misunderstanding within us. So if we misunderstand the teaching, then we tend to feel guilt about wanting something. And if that falls away and we realize, oh, it's not about not wanting, but it's about not needing, not feeling attached to the pleasure. And as you said, as we become more present, there is this natural movement through life and that natural movement is dictated by the body's preferences. That's how the body moves.

So when the sense of when attachment falls away, someone might ask, Well, if my attachment falls away, then how am I going to be motivated to move through life? And the answer is, your attachment falls away, but your biological components don't. That means the biological preferences are then what will drive you through life, but not from an obsessed point of view like the attachment drives us. So let's then backtrack a bit to what you said about why there are practices or spiritual paths that are based on renunciation or a suggestion that pleasure is not ideal for us. And so we can look at the Buddhist monk that goes to the monastery, has their head shaved, puts on ordinary clothes the same as everyone else, no more sex, simple food, hard bed, cold water showers.

Not much enjoyment, compared to all the pleasures that were there previously. And the monk will be immersing themselves in meditation, focusing on the 'I am ness'. Maybe not really understanding what this 'I am ness' is at first, but awareness is continually being directed through the teachings towards the essence of who we are, this Is ness, this Being ness, this I am ness. And one day the monk will be walking through the forest and the sun will be coming through the leaves, mottled sunlight, couldn't be nice crisp morning, everything is beautiful. And the monk stands there and then there's this dawning, oh, I I am.' With no hair, no fancy clothes, no good food, no soft bed, no hot water showers, no sex.

And I am. I'm complete. And at that point, unless it's destiny for the monk, well, once that's really ingrained, grounded, the monk is grounded in that knowing that I Am, Unless it's destiny for the monk to become a head monk and train other monks, the monk will give back his robes, allow his hair to grow, put on his jeans, and off he goes, enjoying life as it presents itself, sometimes pleasure, sometimes pain, but now no longer functioning in life as if with the belief what I am requires more and more and more and more. So the process, the methods of renunciation are there just to break this habit, to break the addiction to pleasure which is supported by this belief, what I am needs all of these things to be complete'. And when experientially we start to see the essence of what we are, then the beliefs fall away on their own.

And you also know tantra, the path of tantra, is a different methodology, and it doesn't at all say that pleasure is a problem. It uses pleasure as the doorway, but that's a different story. So I'm allowed to enjoy? So as far as I'm concerned, for sure. And as far as your peace of mind is concerned, enjoying isn't the problem.

And what we're looking for is peace of mind. We know that what we're looking for is peace of mind not just because weive been told. When suffering stops, whatis there is peace of mind, and in that moment nothing more is needed. When suffering comes in, it becomes very clear that our peace of mind has been lost. We might not recognize what's being lost, we might not recognize that it was simple peace of mind that has been lost.

And this is one of the purposes, I believe, of the flip flop process which happens where after some realizations then we find ourselves flip flopping through life where we're in peace and then the flop is where we suffering comes back. And at some point we might realize that actually the flop is simply the coming back in of suffering. And was that all I actually want is the end of this? I was perfectly happy last week with nothing much different circumstantially to how it is now. But this week my attitude to the circumstance is creating all of this suffering.

And when we realize experientially for ourselves, oh, what I had last week was just the end of suffering.' So that's one of the reasons for the flip flop. And how we know that peace of mind is what we're really looking for is that it's only when we have continuous, unbroken peace of mind that seeking stops. Whenever we get anything else, seeking continues. It may stop for a short period of time but it will start up very quickly. When continuous unbroken peace of mind is there, seeking doesn't happen.

And so to me, seeking is seeking for the purpose of life. So when seeking stops, it must mean that the purpose of life is being lived. So to me the purpose of life is to be happy, or to be. Because when we are being, there is happiness. When we are being, there is happiness which is peace of mind.

So peace of mind is acceptance. So we can say the purpose of life is to be the perf perf purpose of life is to be happy. The purpose of life is to be at peace. The purpose of life is to accept, which is not our doing but a happening, and that happening is just the end of suffering. Or the purpose of life is the end of suffering.

Yeah. I just noticed also if I need something or if I'm attached to the outcome, then often suffering comes in from a from a direction, like, from going some like, from if I choose from that point of view rather than if I'm content and it's just joyful Mhmm. To move in a certain direction. So that's maybe also a good reminder. Sure.

And if you are joyful to just move in a certain direction, you'll find that you are moving without expectation. And so it's this expectation of how life should look that then creates a problem when life turns out the other way. And if you're moving fluidly, we'll find that expectation has fallen away, that's what allows us to move fluidly. We're actually being flowed when expectation falls away. And so without that benchmark of how life should be, then life is allowed to be.

And then we find that what I am is not separate from the flow of life. So the separation is really this belief of what I need and who I am as a separate doer, which then sees the other as a separate doer. And so then there's a separation between me, life, and the other. So the other then becomes a competitor or an enemy. We're suspicious of them.

We're afraid of life because we know that the nature of life is pain sometimes, and so we become scared that life is going to deliver pain, which is seen to be an attack on who I am. So the separation is simply this set of set of beliefs. And when the beliefs fall away, then the separation falls away. And separation falling away is not necessarily a state of oneness, it's not an experience of oneness, it's just a relationship to life and to the other which is different to what it was before. It's a relationship whereby we know that what I Am is connected to Source, which means that I know that I can't function, I can't speak, I can't think, I can't see unless Source is functioning through me, and that the other is the same.

And so from that point of view, we're no longer separate and threats to each other, but rather instruments through which the story of life unfolds. Can we pass the microphone back? I'm not sure exactly exactly what my question is, but maybe as I say a little bit, it will come into form. You you talk about kind of 2 ways of looking at at life as one is sort of this spontaneous emergence from source in every moment or through the lens of cause and effect. Mhmm.

And, before coming here, I was reading about law of correspondence, law of resonance, basically saying that, you know, we are microcosms of the macrocosm, that, you know, this idea of a holistic universe. And through the law of resonance, we we hold everything within us, but through the law of resonance, working like a radio tuning in, that we can come into certain qualities. So for example, in yoga, using the chakras, like, if I want more vitality or more groundedness, then, you know, through the first chakra and working with these energies, I could bring this into life. And so the idea, the way these are presented is very much as a doer or, again, you know, maybe doing something. But I just I'm still not completely clear on the relationship between non doership, law of attraction, and working with these energies in the universe.

Mhmm. So maybe could you talk about that a little bit? Sure. Yes. So this this comes down to understanding what the principle of non doership is pointing at.

So often we can hear, oh, I'm not the doer' and so the conclusion is, oh, in that case I'm just going to sit on the couch and do nothing. What's the point?' And the concept of non doership is not pointing to the fact that nothing happens, it's pointing at the fact that what happens is a happening and that there actually is no one there to do anything. And in this particular teaching there are conceptual descriptions that describe how what happens, how what happens happens both on a causality basis, a mechanical basis, or from a more mystical, esoteric point of view. And so it says that whatever happens in the moment is from a causality point of view, thinking, for example, is the result of the brain. So the brain spits out thought, and the brain is a conditioned instrument, part of the body, which is a conditioned instrument.

And the belief in personal doership doesn't actually create a doer. There never is a doer. It just creates the belief that there is a doer. So in all of time, from the beginning of time to the end of time, there has never been anyone doing anything. And this is not new, this is in, in scriptures.

It points to this fact. Nondorship is something that goes back to Shankara. And Ramesh used to often quote Buddha in saying, 'Events happen, deeds are done, consequences happen, but there is no individual doer thereof.' And that's the realization that once, the brain itself realizes through being reconditioned that what it is is an object and what it produces are outputs of that object. Thoughts are the outputs of a machine and the doer is contained in the thoughts. There is no doer, it is a belief.

And when the brain gets conditioned by life to stop producing thoughts of 'I am the doer', that's what happens. And then the doer falls away because the thoughts that contained the belief in a doer fall away. So this teaching is effectively conditioning the brain through up to date or through new conditioning, which points out that what happens in life is mechanical, that whatever happens through the body is based on biological mechanics, and the brain is very much part of the body. That's the causal explanation that eventually, as the brain plus awareness recognizes the mechanics of life as described, the thinking mind, which is part of the brain, gets dissolved by the working mind in the brain. And then thoughts of doership and feeling of, being the doer and the suffering that arises from that fall away.

The other explanation which doesn't talk about cause and effects is that everything is happening according to God's will. And that source at rest, absolute creative potentiality explodes into manifestation and that the whole of time, from beginning to end, is created before time comes into existence as a block. So Ramesh used to say that the movie is in the can. It has been written, produced, acted, directed, and now we're watching it. And what that means is that cause and effect is not even the real reason for everything that happens.

It just means that it's a story of time and space, a story of cause and effect. And so we look at it as a leads to b leads to c leads to d. Whereas a, b, c, and d all were put in place simultaneously. In fact, d could have been put in place first, and so then c needed to be put in place, and b needed to be put in place, and a needed to be put in place, in order for it all to make sense. So if we look at it that way, that all of life is a spontaneous happening that arises out of consciousness and that the ultimate cause is the potential the potentialness of Source, potential creativity that has exploded into manifestation.

So whichever way you look at it, there is no doer in that. And yet we see that things like the law of attraction, when observed, seems to present itself. So how do we explain law of attraction without introducing a doer? What normally happens is we hear about law of attraction, the sense of personal doership hears it, and then says, oh, I have to manifest what I want. I have to create positive vibes so that more positive things come into my life.

Whereas, what's really happening is simply mechanics. If someone is angry, so it's a description. The law of attraction is just a description, not something you have to do. If someone is angry and they're angry based on their genes and up to date conditioning, they go out into life and they present their angriness based on simple laws of the universe, laws of physics, anger is going to inspire anger in another. And so then we see, someone says if you are angry you are going to attract anger.

And it is the sense of personal doership that says this is my anger that I choose to have. And that when I choose to have anger and I go out there then I am attracting anger. And similarly, if someone goes out and their predisposition is happy and smiley, then they find that they get happy and smiley back. And if we recognize that happy and smiley is not their doing, but a result of who they are, and anger is not a result of the others' doing, but a result of who they are, then we can start to see the law of attraction as a description of what's happening and not my doing. And is there a benefit in hearing about this?

Of course. We hear about this. And if we hear about it and understand it, as a happening and we understand the mechanics, then that could be part of our up to date conditioning that recognizes that if I go out angry, I get angry. That realisation may well become part of our up to date conditioning. That up to date conditioning might function in such a way that a thought comes up and says, I'm going to try and smile more today.' Whether we are able to smile more today or not, not in our control.

But now, the intention as a thought which wasn't my doing, an intention or a thought that has arisen based on my genes and up to date conditioning, having heard about the law of attraction, And hopefully having heard about the law of attraction as described in this context. It still makes sense that we prefer happy than anger being directed at us. We realize the correlation, we realize it's not my doing, and the thought arises, I'm going to try and smile more.' And that might be the basis on which more smiling happens. If more smiling happens, it's destined for more smiling to have happened according to the story of life. It was destined for the thought, I'm going to smile more today to be there as part of the story of life'.

It was destined for the up to date conditioning that came in the form of a book about the law of attraction and the up to date conditioning that came in the form of this discussion about the law of attraction. All of that was also destined to be there. So really when we observe life within this framework, whatever process we're going through, whether it's a process of, purging emotions, whether it's a process of self improvement, whether it's a process of learning how to cook a new dish, in life, If we can start to observe it as all happening based on our genes and up to date conditioning and it's life that is continually reconditioning us, putting us in a cooking class that shows us how to make Indian food. And then we become proficient at making Indian food based on our genes and up to date conditioning. So awareness of these mechanics, which each time we observe life, these these mechanics and the descriptions of these mechanics will hold true.

And as we see them holding true more and more and more, they tend to dissolve the opposing beliefs. And so whenever we feel like I am the doer, I have to do manifesting, I have to do law of attraction, inevitably it feeds into the belief that I need pleasure in order to be more complete. That's why the law of attraction sounds so appealing to people. And it supports the belief that I am the doer. It's very valid as a spiritual path for some people at some times, but at at some point we're gonna have to transcend this attachment to outcome, transcend the belief I am the doer, and then still be subject to the fact that law of attraction as a functioning within this story of life is part of the cosmic law, which means we still will enjoy the pleasure that comes as a result of being happy and have to endure the pain that comes as a result of being angry, if that happens to be how we are.

Did that is it I'm happy to if there's something that doesn't hasn't quite been answered. I'm not quite there yet, though. Yeah. I noticed now, for the second time, this very strong insight that, if my up to date conditioning changes, this there is a very strong link for identification to happen, like I changed. Or there's something it's a bit hard to put into words, but very clearly seen that, it's really just a mechanic that's happening and then more thoughts will come.

Like, if I learned something, like, if my up to date conditioning got teachings, then there's a feeling that I learned it, and I'm gonna use it. Like, it's very interesting to let that sink in, that Yeah. It's really just the thoughts that come are different. So it feels like me. Yeah.

And what you describe is pride when we, assume that what is happening is my doing and we look at the positive changes that happen in in seeking, we become a proud seeker, in a sense. And at some point, we'll realize that that is suffering. We'll feel it as suffering. We'll feel it's not quite right. And awareness because awareness will become very becomes very highly attuned to landing on suffering, knowing it's the problem, will realize, oh, I'm claiming ownership over my spiritual progress.

And so humble humility comes from this realization, I'm not the one that achieved anything. This is just destiny. Very good luck, you could say. And when the other is in a state of deep suffering or anger or judgment, the same realization applies, oh, they are not the doers, so there's compassion.' There is there is a strong sense, as long as I change and evolve and it gets less suffering, then I'm doing something right, and that's that's where the doers, yeah, and some attachment. Yeah.

But if if suffering is falling away as things are happening, then we can reframe it to gratitude and awe. So we awe, we see, 'Wow, it is changing and it is getting better. This is an amazing process of life.' And I am grateful, you know, 'Thank you for what you are giving to me.' that is what gratitude is. It's the arising of gratitude for what I didn't do but yet what I get to benefit from. And trust then comes in as well when the when we see life from this perspective and we realize, 'Wow, I'm not doing it and yet it's happening!' And as we realize it's happening, we tend to start trusting life more.

Because we see that I cannot do anything and things still happen positively. And so it's all of these things snowball. So I think, well, we still have a bit of time, but yeah. Just check it's on. I'm not sure if it's Just a follow-up to my earlier question.

I'm thinking how to put this. Would you say that there was any difference in how you or whether you were drawn to tend to the illusion, pre versus post integration? How I would tend to the illusion, as in how I would function in it? Or, Yeah, or, you know, just politics, for example. Just, you know, did you have any more or less interest?

Mhmm. Let's just just pulled that one out of a hat, but Yeah. I have absolutely no interest in how the world turns out. And having said that, in each moment I'll do whatever seems relevant for me to do in that moment. Which means I don't have a mental idea of world politics or world environmental situations turning out a certain way, because I'm very clear that that's going to turn out exactly the way it's going to turn out.

However, in a particular situation if there is something that needs doing, that is specifically relevant to here and now, then this understanding doesn't prevent us from doing things to change the situation. So if I see on TV a protest, this is not what happens to be my nature, but it could happen. If I see a protest happening somewhere and the feeling inside says this is an amazing cause, and I can do something about it, I can buy a ticket and I'm going to go and stand in the protest lines, I could imagine that could happen, but I'm not going to sit at home imagining about all of the problems in the world, wanting them to be different when I know that in theory there is nothing I can do. And in practice the only thing I can do is do what I think or feel I can do about a particular situation as it presents itself in each moment. Which means if I see someone that really looks like they're in trouble or starving and that they ask for something, the impulse if I see someone is absolutely hungry, and being aware of the fact that there are refugees all over the world.

I know I can't change that situation, but I can put in place a monthly donation, knowing that that's what I'm capable of doing, it's done, and now I don't need to think about it anymore. Until the thought might come up if I see something particular somewhere, to do something more. So to me I think we can look at the world very this issue very practically, and do in each moment what we feel like doing, without a judgment on how that should look. And also understanding that what we think will be good, what politician is going to be best for the world, we have to realize this is just a relative concept, a concept that my fairly limited brain, my very limited brain, with very limited information actually about how politics and economics and the much bigger picture of the universe works, has really no idea what is good and what is bad. And so someone who stands up there, convinced that they know what is good and what is bad, is probably going to have the basis for a lot of suffering in their life.

And so activism, if we are attached to the outcome, is also going to mean that an activist is going to be very bitter because they are fighting as if this has to happen. So I can imagine that very few activists, but I can imagine there are some activists that are there knowing that the outcome is not in their control, doing whatever they feel to do, knowing that it's not in their control and actually in the biggest scheme life is unfolding exactly as it's meant to unfold. So thank you, everyone. Oh. You were speaking about earlier.

You said something to the effect of don't worry about meditating 6 to 8 every morning, go to the beach. I was wondering if you could, just elaborate on that slightly. Right. When I said it was more in relation not in relation to meditating, but, in relation to this process of allowing feelings to come up and be felt. Once we understand what could happen.

We've had a description given to us of what could happen in relation to allowing feelings to flower, not my doing, but something that would happen according to my genes and up to date conditioning, then we shouldn't when I say shouldn't, turning it into a practice is trying to force it. So instead just live life and when the emotions come up, then the understanding might might or it might not kick into place. So the understanding that, oh, I want to investigate what this emotion is. I want it to flower more than I normally would allow it to, so I'm not going to, get on Facebook and distract myself. And so if we do it like that, which means we have no intention of, allowing the emotions to come out, we just see that it happens automatically when the emotions present themselves and we're not in control of when the emotion is going to present itself, then it means we haven't turned it into a practice.

And so then the extension of that when it comes to meditation, if we turn meditation into a practice that we have to master and that, I I you know, I'm a great meditator because I sit for 2 hours between 68, we'll see that at some point we'll realize that attitude to meditation is actually bound to lead to quite a lot of suffering, because it would also come with an idea of what a good meditation looks like. And we're not in control of whether our thinking stops or it doesn't stop or what the meditation looks like. So if we go in there with this idea, 'I am a good meditator and this is what my meditation needs to look like', we're bound to be And so, once again, Ramesh. I mean, a lot of what I say comes from the teachings of Ramesh because I think they're such a beautiful framework. They address so many issues.

He would say, Meditate if you enjoy it and if you feel like it.' And someone would say, well, if I do that, I'll never meditate.' But the purpose of meditation is actually to bring us to a point where we allow life to be as it is. So if you have this attitude that says, oh, I'm going to meditate when I feel like it and because I enjoy it, then already that's a very deep meditation attitude coming in that says that. If we if we if we say, oh, I'm going to do it when I feel like and when I, and when I like it, so when I want to and when I feel like it, and we're just flippant about it and we don't understand what that means, then it's not a very deep meditation practice. Can you say that you're not helping to understand that? Yeah.

That so the suggestion is meditate because you like it and when you feel to meditate. And someone might say, well, if I follow that instruction, I'm never going to meditate. Or that's what it would seem anyway. Someone might think, well, I'm never going to meditate if I just do it when I feel like it. And because I like it?

Then I'll limit And that's okay, maybe you won't ever meditate. But what has allowed you to follow that suggestion is a very deep meditation attitude, an attitude of recognizing that I don't need to make life happen, I don't need to turn myself into anything, I just need to allow everything to be as it is, which is not generally how we flow through life. Well, so I'll change it. That's not how we generally move through life. And when we tend to have that attitude, then we find ourselves flowing through life.

And we find that what stops us flowing through life is this set of ideas of how I should and shouldn't be. And that extends into spirituality, how I should and shouldn't meditate. And also, like Julia was mentioning, these ideas of I should not enjoy pleasure, for example, all these shoulds and shouldn'ts. And when we see them, we go, wow, this is the problem. This is part of this identity that is attached to outcomes, and thinks that life has to look a certain way and my movement in life needs to look a certain way.

So, yeah, it takes takes a lot to actually go to the beach when we're a when we're a big spiritual seeker. But can you see I'm going to go to the beach because I realize it's a surrender in a sense. It's like, oh, I realize that this understanding can happen when I'm sitting on the beach, especially if I have this attitude that understands that this is not about working hard, this is about surrender.